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	<title>Comments on: Wonderful Toynbee Grauniad Pope-Slap</title>
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	<link>http://submitresponse.co.uk/weblog/2005/04/08/wonderful-toynbee-grauniad-pope-slap/</link>
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		<title>By: Joe Wright</title>
		<link>http://submitresponse.co.uk/weblog/2005/04/08/wonderful-toynbee-grauniad-pope-slap/comment-page-1/#comment-2150</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mottram.textdriven.com/weblog/?p=871#comment-2150</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Truely a fair argument, however despite his [now defunct] rejection of homosexuality, female preists, contraception and many other things which are really, down to moral sense, his faith has brought happiness, or at least trust within religion, to many people who have nothing more than just that: faith.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And what would you have prefered the increased media coverage to be aimed at: the Royal Wedding? The Grand National?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The death of such a religious protagonist will be mourned, or at least recognized by many, as would the death of say, Tony Blair, however, there, I would definately draw the line at canonization.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But I digress; what I beleive is thus: that a man of such prominence within the world should be mourned, and with positivity, as he was hardly a monster, traditionalism and religion are funny subjects, they stem from old traditions (hence, obviously, the name). Traditions such as the &#039;stereotypical male and female roles&#039;, whether he was indeed a &lt;i&gt;propogator of aids&lt;/i&gt; can be questioned upon, however he was simply doing as his religion instucted, and cathlocism, although morally wrong, does frown upon the use of contraception.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The writing of Toynbee was an interesting read, but it angered me to see her reference to lenin in such a way; in fact Lenin was gripped by the civil way of the early 1920s and years before, between the socialist Red Army, and the White army, the monarchists. Monarchists infact helped by Britain and the United states, without which the White Army would have been crushed much earlier, with less deaths, which she blames on Lenin.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It is not that I beleive that Toynbee was infact wrong, just that perhaps the choice of Russian leader was a bit &#039;skew-whiff&#039;, and that Losif Vissarionovich Stalin might perhaps have been the better choice.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Respectfully, &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Joe Wright&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Truely a fair argu&shy;ment, how&shy;ever despite his [now defunct] rejec&shy;tion of homo&shy;sex&shy;u&shy;al&shy;ity, female preists, con&shy;tra&shy;cep&shy;tion and many other things which are really, down to moral sense, his faith has brought hap&shy;pi&shy;ness, or at least trust within reli&shy;gion, to many people who have noth&shy;ing more than just that:&nbsp;faith.</p>
<p>And what would you have pref&shy;ered the increased media cov&shy;er&shy;age to be aimed at: the Royal Wed&shy;ding? The Grand National?</p>
<p>The death of such a reli&shy;gious pro&shy;tag&shy;o&shy;nist will be mourned, or at least rec&shy;og&shy;nized by many, as would the death of say, Tony Blair, how&shy;ever, there, I would defi&shy;nately draw the line at canonization.</p>
<p>But I digress; what I beleive is thus: that a man of such promi&shy;nence within the world should be mourned, and with pos&shy;i&shy;tiv&shy;ity, as he was hardly a mon&shy;ster, tra&shy;di&shy;tion&shy;al&shy;ism and reli&shy;gion are funny sub&shy;jects, they stem from old tra&shy;di&shy;tions (hence, obvi&shy;ously, the name). Tra&shy;di&shy;tions such as the &#8216;stereotypical male and female roles&#8217;, whether he was indeed a <i>pro&shy;poga&shy;tor of aids</i> can be ques&shy;tioned upon, how&shy;ever he was simply doing as his reli&shy;gion instucted, and cathlocism, although morally wrong, does frown upon the use of contraception.</p>
<p>The writ&shy;ing of Toyn&shy;bee was an inter&shy;est&shy;ing read, but it angered me to see her ref&shy;er&shy;ence to lenin in such a way; in fact Lenin was gripped by the civil way of the early 1920s and years before, between the social&shy;ist Red Army, and the White army, the monar&shy;chists. Monar&shy;chists infact helped by Britain and the United states, with&shy;out which the White Army would have been crushed much ear&shy;lier, with less deaths, which she blames on&nbsp;Lenin.</p>
<p>It is not that I beleive that Toyn&shy;bee was infact wrong, just that per&shy;haps the choice of Russ&shy;ian leader was a bit &#8216;skew-whiff&#8217;, and that Losif Vis&shy;sar&shy;i&shy;onovich Stalin might per&shy;haps have been the better choice.</p>
<p>Respectfully, </p>
<p>Joe Wright</p>
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		<title>By: Zefrog</title>
		<link>http://submitresponse.co.uk/weblog/2005/04/08/wonderful-toynbee-grauniad-pope-slap/comment-page-1/#comment-2149</link>
		<dc:creator>Zefrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mottram.textdriven.com/weblog/?p=871#comment-2149</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Wonderful stuff indeed. I had started a post on the same subject. Having read your post and the article, I gave up finishing my entry and just linked to the Guardian&#039;s piece.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thanks for this.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Won&shy;der&shy;ful stuff indeed. I had started a post on the same sub&shy;ject. Having read your post and the arti&shy;cle, I gave up fin&shy;ish&shy;ing my entry and just linked to the Guardian&#8217;s piece.</p>
<p>Thanks for&nbsp;this.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Mottram</title>
		<link>http://submitresponse.co.uk/weblog/2005/04/08/wonderful-toynbee-grauniad-pope-slap/comment-page-1/#comment-2148</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Mottram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mottram.textdriven.com/weblog/?p=871#comment-2148</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m not sure I understand what you mean - that JPII deserves respect for bringing faith to people&#039;s lives? If so - I suppose you could see that as laudable, but only if the faith he inspired had a positive impact on the world. But it didn&#039;t - it led to suffering and death. Which is not good. Which is why I was sickened by the overwhelmingly positive media coverage in the wake of his death, and enjoyed Polly Toynbee&#039;s piece.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure I under&shy;stand what you mean - that JPII deserves respect for bring&shy;ing faith to people&#8217;s lives? If so - I sup&shy;pose you could see that as laud&shy;able, but only if the faith he inspired had a pos&shy;i&shy;tive impact on the world. But it didn&#8217;t - it led to suf&shy;fer&shy;ing and death. Which is not good. Which is why I was sick&shy;ened by the over&shy;whelm&shy;ingly pos&shy;i&shy;tive media cov&shy;er&shy;age in the wake of his death, and enjoyed Polly Toynbee&#8217;s piece.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Wright</title>
		<link>http://submitresponse.co.uk/weblog/2005/04/08/wonderful-toynbee-grauniad-pope-slap/comment-page-1/#comment-2147</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mottram.textdriven.com/weblog/?p=871#comment-2147</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hardly wonderful.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;A man who gave so many people faith should be honoured, perhaps even canonized, atheist as I am I thus beleive he should be respected as the next man who can do such a thing, and I know not of anyone like that.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Do you?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hardly wonderful.</p>
<p>A man who gave so many people faith should be hon&shy;oured, per&shy;haps even can&shy;on&shy;ized, athe&shy;ist as I am I thus beleive he should be respected as the next man who can do such a thing, and I know not of anyone like&nbsp;that.</p>
<p>Do&nbsp;you?</p>
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